Kraft/Ausdauer Trainingsthread

[Hellboy]

also halluzinationen hatte ich bisher nu keine, ausser das zebra neben mir an der beinpresse war in wahrheit ein angemalter esel und ich habs nur so gesehen

[Stickhead]

100kg san eh nu halbwegs gemütlich

[Hellboy]

find ich auch

[>Michael<]

Macht hier Jemand Langhantel-Curls mit Obergriff (Also Handrücken zeigt nach oben)?

Ich mache die seit ca. 6 Wochen zusätzlich zu den normalen KH curls weil ich einfach mal den Trainingseffekt dieser Übung erfahren wollte. Soll den Armbeuger trainieren der sonst eigentlich durch die anderen Übungen wenig Aufmerksamkeit bekommt, merke aber nichts ausser einen geringen Trainingseffekt am Unterarm durch das geradehalten des Handgelenks.

Erfahrungen? Positiv, negtativ?

[Hellboy]

hab ich schon öfter gemacht, in meinem fall ist dabei der armbeuger der limitierende muskel, daher ein guter trainingseffekt

Link: seite mit vielen feinen übungen mit beschreibung der zielgruppe(n)
http://www.hantelfix.de/uebungen_arme.html

[Stickhead]

Ich mach sie nicht... halte die Übung für nicht sooo wichtig.

Ich hab auch wieder herumexperimentiert bei meinem Plan:
Seit ein paar Wochen mache ich Montag Kraft, Mittwoch Ausdauer, Freitag Kraft (statt jeden Traningstag Kraft). Das Ausdauertraining umfasst die selben Übungen, wie das Krafttraining... nur mache ich statt 8 WH überall 20 WH, jedoch natürlich auch hier mit dem höchstmöglichen (vgl. zzt. Bankdrücken: 3x8x95 - 3x20x65). Ein Kraftverlust, den ich anfangs befürchtete, ist jedenfalls eindeutig nicht festzustellen - im Gegenteil! Es scheint mir, dass das den Muskeln sehr gut tut und dass sich die Kraft auch besser aufbaut.

[>Michael<]

Ich halte den oben genannten Übungsplan für ungesund, beim Krafttraining werden die Sehnen und Gelenke sehr beansprucht und brauchen schon ein bisschen Rast (bei mir 2-3 Tage) um die minimalen Beschädigungen zu regenerieren und sich zu verbessern, genau wenn das geschehen sollte kommst du dann und machst die gleichen Übungen nochmal mit mehr Wiederholungen. Ich glaube du wirst damit auf lange Zeit je nach Intensität deiens Trainings Sehnen und Gelenksprobleme bekommen. Ich hatte mal einen ähnlichen Plan, aber nach einer Zeit tat mir die Bizepssehne richtig weh und ich stoppte sofort. Jetzt habe ich einen Plan wo ich jeden Tag Kraft-Iso Plus ein bisschen Ausdauer mache und durchs Rotationsverfahren die einzelnen Muskelgruppen / Sehnen / Gelenke trotzdem 3 Tage Rast erhalten.

Bau doch einfach das Ausdauertraining in das Krafttraining ein, sagen wir du machst z.B an Tag X 4 Stints 6 Wdh. Bizepcscurls max. Kraft. Mach danach einfach 3 stints mit geringerem Gewicht und 15 Wdh.

[Hellboy]

ich machs auch so, split auf 5 tage, dadurch gibts für die jeweilige muskulatur genug regenerationszeit.

allgemein heissts oft man soll ne aufbauphase mit einer ausdauer/definitionsphase abwechseln, in der praxis isses nach meiner erfahrung absolut in ordnung nach kraftsätzen ausdauersätze anzuhängen oder von zb 5 bizepsübungen die letzten 2 mit weniger gewicht und vielen wiederholungen zu machen

[>Michael<]

Ich mach gerade eine Bankdrück-Pause und experimentiere mit Kurzhantel-Nackendrücken ( + Trizeps curls als Ersatz fürs BD) und wow, was für eine Übung! Kann ich schwerstens für die empfehlen bei denen die Schultern als ganzes zu kurz kommen, die Übung haut richtig rein - besser als Frontheben. Ich machs gerade mit 8x 60Kg und fühlt sich richtig gut an.

[johnny 2face]

Nach 6 Jahren des Trainings in verschiedenen Fitnessstudios mit unzähligen Splits, Zirkeln und GK Trainingsplänen bin ich nun auf Crossfit umgestiegen.
"Normales" Training war mir eben schon zu langweilig

Nach dem ersten Training hatte ich gleich mal so nen schlimmen Muskelkater im Oberschenkel, dass ich 2 Tage lang nicht wusste wie ich mich am Besten Bewegen geschweige denn hin setzen soll.

Und ich dachte immer ich wäre eh sehr fit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pndckJpeRaQ&feature=related

[jpdavid]

x
x

[Expat]

Wenn ich beim Crossfit dieses "auf Kisten springen" sehe, wird mir immer anders - sowas machen selbst Athleten nur sehr vorsichtig, die Verletzungsgefahr ist einfach zu groß.

[>Michael<]

Crossfit hatten wir immer im Gymnasium 2x2 Stunden / Woche, ich hatte nie wieder so viel Spass bei Sport. Da gabs sogar eine negativ-Kletterwand!

[raptor]

Nach 6 Jahren des Trainings in verschiedenen Fitnessstudios mit unzähligen Splits, Zirkeln und GK Trainingsplänen bin ich nun auf Crossfit umgestiegen.
"Normales" Training war mir eben schon zu langweilig

Nach dem ersten Training hatte ich gleich mal so nen schlimmen Muskelkater im Oberschenkel, dass ich 2 Tage lang nicht wusste wie ich mich am Besten Bewegen geschweige denn hin setzen soll.

Und ich dachte immer ich wäre eh sehr fit.

Jeder Idiot mit genauso wenig Ausbildung und Erfahrung wie der typische CF "Coach" kann ein hirnrissiges, zufällig zusammengewürfeltes, Workout zusammenstellen, das einen komplett überfordert und ausbrennt. CF ist etwas für Möchtegerns, entgegen den Marketing-Ansagen der Organisation gibt es nämlich keinen einzigen Spitzensportler und keine Militäreinheit, die nach CF Methoden trainieren. Warum auch? US Aushängeschilder der Sekte rudern z.B. auf einen C2 schlechtere Zeiten als 14-jährige Wettkampfruderinnen. Die Navy-SEALs haben kürzlich öffentlich den Angaben CFs widersprochen, daß sie CF trainieren würden und in der Person des Körpertraining-Chefs das "Programm" massiv kritisiert. Weiters hat z.B. eine ehemaliger Matrose einen Prozeß gegen ein CF Studio gewonnen, da man ihn dort unter Verletzung aller Sorgfaltspflichten in ein Nierenversagen getrieben hat.

Dein Problem ist nicht ein falscher Plan oder mangelnde Intensität, sondern zu wenig Konsistenz.

CF sackelt Leute finanziell aus, treibt sie in einen Burnout, hat ein ungeklärtes Verhältnis zu Doping, funktioniert intern in der Zentrale wie eine Sekte und läßt massenweise Verletzte in seinem Kielwasser zurück. Hauptsache, Glassman lacht sich krank am Weg zur Bank. Ich kann jedem nur raten, darum einen weiten Bogen zu machen. Besonders wenn er in einen echten Sport etwas gewinnen will. Das ist alles, was ich dazu zu sagen habe. Eine Diskussion wird nicht stattfinden, da ich Leuten, die CF Mitgliedschaften lösen, nicht helfen kann und Diskussionen mit ihnen so spannend wie mit Zeugen Jehovas sind.

Ach ja, ich hab auch ein cooles Video:

http://www.gloria.tv/?media=67127

[raptor]

Ach, ja, das noch. Straight from the horse's mouth:

Questions about Crossfit come up pretty frequently and I’ve addressed some of them, but I’ll deal with the topic again in more detail. Sit back and get comfortable, this may take a while.

Any discussion about Crossfit should probably begin with deciding what exactly Crossfit is. It uses a lot of concepts like circuit training, interval training, calisthenics, Olympic lifting etc. yet none of these are unique to Crossfit. Just using these activities in your training doesn’t automatically mean you are doing Crossfit, though Crossfit has claimed some prominent athletes are “Crossfitters” because they do some of the things that Crossfitters also do, even if those athletes spend most of their time doing endurance training for sports like triathlon or rowing. On the other hand, I’ve met people who describe themselves as “Crossfitters” even though what they do doesn’t really seem to match what I’ve seen on the Crossfit web page. So when I talk about “Crossfit”, understand that I’m talking specifically about the training described at Crossfit.com and their “Workouts of the Day”, which may be different from what you think of as Crossfit or what you might be doing if you work out at one of their affiliate gyms doing affiliate programming.

Recognize also that my comments about Crossfit are directed towards guys preparing for BUD/S, and the SEAL & SWCC communities, not people in the general public with different needs or interests. I don’t recommend Crossfit as prep for BUD/S, although it does have some merits. Intensity is the single most important factor related to adaptation, but intensity must be used properly. Variety is good, but variety must be balanced with consistency. A willingness to push the envelope and think outside the box is also good, but within reason. I have several criticisms which I will explain directly. Also, Crossfit promotes ideas on nutrition (Zone diet) which directly contradict sports science research on performance, and ideas about running (POSE technique) that have not been validated by empirical research and should be approached cautiously. Here are links to some of my previous comments on these topics:

http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=30#post-78
http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=87
http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=106
http://sealswcc.com/blog/index.php/archives/10

One of my criticisms of Crossfit for BUD/S candidates is a lack of specificity, and while they say up front their program is about general fitness and that they specialize in NOT specializing, that is not the right approach for BUD/S. BUD/S is an event with known physical demands, and these should be addressed with a program specifically designed for BUD/S. The random nature of Crossfit programming will not adequately address the major events in BUD/S or mentally prepare you for its hardships. The idea that performing randomly selected activities or modes of exercise will somehow condition you for Hell Week is at best naive. The concept of Mental Toughness and what defines the successful BUD/S student has been thoroughly studied by some very smart people at NSW. Mental Toughness is taught to BUD/S students, and it has nothing to do with the random challenges approach.

Other criticisms of Crossfit include:
• Illogical combinations of exercises (such as pre-fatiguing exercises before heavy dead lifts)
• Prescribing the same workouts (including the same weight) for everybody regardless of personal history of training or injury
• Arbitrary goals (such as using 50 or 100 reps for multiple exercises)
• Prescription of exercises that require specialized skills and baseline conditioning and are not appropriate for beginners under high-intensity conditions (Olympic lifts, kettle bells)
• Use of exercises of questionable safety if done rapidly or while fatigued (glute-ham sit-ups, muscle ups, Turkish get-ups)
• Exclusion of useful exercises (such as leg curls or biceps curls) as being “nonfunctional”
• Formats that reward poor technique, such as shortening the ROM to get more reps in less time (despite the lip service Crossfit gives to technique, it is rarely observed in practice)
• Too many formats that blend strength and endurance activities such that the effectiveness of both are diluted (better to perform strength and endurance activities independently most of the time)

Some of the key physiological adaptations necessary for BUD/S not adequately addressed by the Crossfit methodology include endurance, eccentric conditioning, and strengthening in multiple planes. Eccentric conditioning means properly emphasizing the negative (downward) portion of movements, which is necessary for developing resistance to injury as well as the ability to control heavy weights (such as logs and boats), and is not addressed by high-speed reps or by lifting weights up and then dropping them. Strength in multiple planes requires movements that utilize hip abduction, trunk rotation, and shoulder internal/external rotation.

Crossfit has been criticized for risk of injury, a legitimate concern for any conditioning program, certainly not only for Crossfit. Preparing for BUD/S (or to deploy as a SEAL) is serious business and requires serious training. It is unrealistic to expect training to be injury-free. But the benefits of training should always outweigh the potential risks. Preparation for BUD/S should leave you strong and healthy and free of damage, not carrying the baggage of any training-induced injuries or complaints that may pop up again under the heavy demands of BUD/S. For a SEAL, statistics show he is more likely to be injured while in the gym or doing recreational activities than doing anything else related to the job (including completing a mission). It is appropriate and obligatory to scrutinize a training program for the potential to cause injury. In the past I spent years working with doctors, athletic trainers, and physical therapists who treat Division I and Olympic athletes in many sports, and now I work with the medical personnel who treat BUD/S students and SEALs, collaborating to develop conditioning routines that enhance and complement operational training, not hinder it. (Physical training refers to conditioning activities like running and weight lifting, while operational training refers to developing specific warrior skills like weapons, breaching, CQD, etc.) For example, there have been incidences of students or operators left unable to properly handle a weapon after tearing up their hands or tweaking their elbows or shoulders while doing some high-rep high-speed routine involving pull-ups, kettle bells and Olympic bars. Guys have also been treated for rhabdomyolysis following such routines. Such routines are also associated with the type of overuse repetitive stress injuries that can plague a guy for his entire career. As an aside, it is instructive to talk to SEALs in different age groups about their training history. Guys in their 20s still think they’re bullet proof and all that talk about injury just means you’re a wuss. Guys in their 30s are a little more cautious. Guys in their 40s and 50s are wishing they could go back and do things differently.

Another criticism of Crossfit is a lack of reliable evidence to support its effectiveness or safety. Despite frequent use of phrases such as “empirically driven” and “measurable, observable, repeatable”, there is no publicly available data concerning Crossfit. Anecdotal accounts and testimonials on the Crossfit web site aren’t acceptable because they are unverifiable and represent a self-selected sample. Perhaps someday comparisons of Crossfit WODs with other training programs will be conducted on matched sample groups (age, experience, initial fitness, etc.) by unbiased and independent researchers to determine the effects on measures of health and performance, and if those comparisons are favorable I will be glad to recommend Crossfit among the training options available to BUD/S candidates.

Regarding the statements made here:
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showth...t=42448&page=3
Crossfit is definitely NOT part of the official curriculum at BUD/S. Some BUD/S Instructors have been interested in Crossfit and have had their students perform PTs that are clearly influenced by or copied from Crossfit. For example, a recent class during the eight weeks of Second Phase did six PTs that included the following:
• 50 reps each of slam ball, wall ball, pull-ups, burpees, and box jumps
• Every minute, do 5 pull-ups, 10 push-ups, and 15 air squats (20 rounds)
• Do a round of pull-ups, knees to elbows, and dips for 10 reps, then 9 reps, then 8 reps and so on down to 1 rep (sprint over the berm after each round)
• 21 reps, then 15 reps, then 9 reps of push press (75lbs), box jumps, and wall ball
None of those workouts were timed, and students were able to keep good form while still maintaining intensity. There were no complex lifts or heavy weights for time. In addition to those half dozen PTs over eight weeks, students ran and swam dozens and dozens of miles (one evolution is a 5.5 nautical mile ocean swim which takes several hours to complete). Overall, that isn’t much like what Crossfit describes as its methodology and in fact sounds a lot like what they tell people not to do. There is certainly no basis for the statement that Crossfit has resulted in better performance and fewer injuries among BUD/S students. In fact, recent trends such as better PST scores, fewer performance failures/rolls/drops, fewer medical drops, and especially, more Hell Week successes – can all be attributed in part to the structured approach to training promoted in the Physical Training Guide and the NSW Prep Course. Among the SEAL Teams, the established training model is the Tactical Athlete Program (TAP), an evidence-based program developed in conjunction with research at the University of Pittsburgh’s Human Performance Laboratory and in collaboration with the National Strength and Conditioning Association. TAP provides training methods for developing strength, speed, and endurance to meet the needs of today’s SEAL. (It is true, some SEALs including BUD/S Instructors elect to pursue Crossfit or other training methods for their non-group PT, but those are individual choices.)

The web site NavySEALs.com is often mistaken for an official NSW page, but it is commercially owned and operated and the SEAL Fit program is not endorsed by NSW. There are many people participating on their training forum who have been to BUD/S and even some former or current SEALs, so you can get some first-hand information there, though sometimes it may be a little out of date. Also, NavySEALs.com is affiliated with Crossfit, and some of the people who post are there to promote Crossfit. As for Crossfit Endurance, I don’t recommend it for BUD/S candidates. (Again, I am not commenting on its value for the general public.) For my recommendations regarding the most effective use of interval and LSD training, see the Physical Training Guide as well as my recent Training Blogs on SEALSWCC.com: http://www.sealswcc.com/blog/

I will be criticized by Crossfit for not “understanding” the program or for not having given it a proper chance. I’ve sat in on a couple Certifications, I’ve followed the web site for the past couple years and read many documents found there, I’ve interacted with many people active in the Crossfit community, I’ve observed plenty of people doing Crossfit workouts, and over the years I’ve experimented with many of the techniques found in their programming. So I “get” Crossfit, I just don’t endorse it. I actually prefer to avoid giving negative advice (telling people what NOT to do), and would rather tell them what characterizes good training and let them decide for themselves if something like Crossfit satisfies those requirements. When preparing for BUD/S I strongly encourage a structured, methodical, organized approach. The key to effective training is to identify the necessary adaptations and to systematically and progressively work towards developing them. Remember that the nature of training means it will not always be fun or glamorous or exciting, but you have to be willing to do what needs to be done. As for other points of view, I support the right of any fitness program to promote itself and pursue customers, but I also encourage the public to educate themselves and make informed choices from the many options available. From where I stand, I wouldn’t care if BUD/S candidates trained by following Crossfit, Gym Jones, P90x, Zumba, or Sweatin’ to the Oldies as long as it prepared them for what lies ahead. I put out the best information I can and make recommendations I hope you will follow, but ultimately it’s your life and your responsibility.

Mike Caviston
Director of Fitness, NSWCEN